Oh wow. Kat was pushing the cage inwards. I wonder if she would’ve went through with it
20 Oct 2025 | 12:01 AM
Zil
Are you, now.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:01 AM
mcp4glenn
Is their ZIP going anywhere, or are they stuck?
20 Oct 2025 | 12:02 AM
Numan Boxboy
z-z-z-z-s-s-s-s-S-S-MOKIN'!!!!'
20 Oct 2025 | 12:02 AM
spicedGumdrops
The Bit Off More Than We Could Chew Squad makes a hasty retreat.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:02 AM
Pani85
Kat 1-Coven 0
Was Kat shrinking the cage?
20 Oct 2025 | 12:03 AM
Parismio
Oh they almost got sliced.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:03 AM
Aww
Surely they can't get off that easily.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:04 AM
Eden
She lives to see another day. The hopefuls had their plan foiled by one girl and ancient robots. It might be better for her to stay by Annie from this point on though.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:07 AM
Shauku
Byee! Until next time!
20 Oct 2025 | 12:08 AM
Bruce
And just like that…… they bwipped away.
Interesting that Kat was prepared to kill them. She who controls an army of robots…..
20 Oct 2025 | 12:12 AM
ansayo
....and STAY OUT!
20 Oct 2025 | 12:16 AM
Godric
It's an extremely harmless hologram?
20 Oct 2025 | 12:44 AM
Aecius
Such a sensible witch.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:47 AM
Mbjbn_iupkj
Yeah you'd better run. Or don't, and we get to watch Kat beat you up.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:47 AM
Cad
Of course you know, this means war.
20 Oct 2025 | 12:55 AM
Val
Yall are gettin' out easy! She could have teleported your butts outta there and let the distortion deal with you!
20 Oct 2025 | 1:02 AM
Ka_Trewq
...was that a good move, though? Is the "zzzt" similar to an ominous high power voltage hum, or a bluff to make them leave ASAP, as maintaining the cage is taxing on Kat? I would guess that a cage designed to hold Loup has some countermeasures against teleportation. The cage is green, which might mean the Arrow is somewhat involved; if true, we know that, when correctly deployed, the Arrow is more powerful than Coyote or the Death Guides.
20 Oct 2025 | 1:02 AM
BenRG
Well, that’s the last we'll see of them… in one piece, that is.
20 Oct 2025 | 1:07 AM
Annatar
I'm sorry they are getting away scot-free, but this is probably the best for Kat.
20 Oct 2025 | 1:11 AM
eddi
Strategic withdrawal. Hopefully Kat can sort out their problem before they come back with bigger mojo.
20 Oct 2025 | 1:14 AM
:3
Jack would rather die than let whatever he's afraid of happen? Someone get this mans a nap or something, he's completely crashed out.
20 Oct 2025 | 1:17 AM
jannie endgame
yea kat you da MAN
20 Oct 2025 | 1:23 AM
sbb
Ah ok so nothing of value happened today. Honestly good I sincerly hope for a redemption. I know, that's overplayed, but I like all these fellas.
That is, if the 'bwip' actually works. However if it does couldn't loup have just done the same to f off? Is 'the orb' that powerful? Dahm I kinda want to sleep two days straight to time travel to the next page
20 Oct 2025 | 1:32 AM
RyGuy
She was going to grate them like cheese!
20 Oct 2025 | 1:37 AM
Merrin
Yeah, perhaps going against a technological deity wasn't such a good idea after all. Now she's pissed, but not becuase they targeted her, but becuase they hurt her "kids". These kids are soooooooo fucked.
20 Oct 2025 | 2:01 AM
Boxbot
Well if Loup could not teleport through this cage, I fear this trip may not end up well for them.
20 Oct 2025 | 2:01 AM
N
Watching this has made me realise something: Jenny and her coven, even Jack, all have the tropes of a YA novel/animated tv series. You have the group of pretty women with magical powers, witches, the haunted but handsome love interest, Jack, and their enemy: Technology represented by Kat. In that sort of story, Tech would be the bad guy.
20 Oct 2025 | 2:17 AM
Hamish
Is Rosa using a small Buga Sphere? Also, ZIp instead of Bwip?
20 Oct 2025 | 2:37 AM
Hyuck
Woo! Annie’s gonna be so pissed. Though it’s nice to see Kat hold her own when she doesn’t usually fight
20 Oct 2025 | 2:57 AM
Daisho
Boss move from Kat. As I said a couple of pages ago, you don't want to make her angry. ;)
20 Oct 2025 | 3:02 AM
EyeOfMidas
You can't do that, right? Did Kat just kill Jack and the witches inadvertently?
20 Oct 2025 | 3:08 AM
Tyroki
No please, Jack, go ahead and touch it. Geez, Kat is being far too merciful with the slow moving cage.
20 Oct 2025 | 3:11 AM
Pablo
So "ZIP" for Zara's inter-dimensional Portal? I'm gonna guess that the next version of Kat's Holding Pen is going to feature an etheric extension that will shut down that little Loup-hole ... and maybe close in a lot faster, too.
20 Oct 2025 | 3:56 AM
psyraptor
Congratz, now the entire robot population is gonna be out for blood. Yall are fucked. And thats not counting the fucking Fire elemental that is Annie!
20 Oct 2025 | 3:57 AM
boxbot
Katerina found her superpower!
20 Oct 2025 | 4:01 AM
socksbot
Good, she's struggling to keep those lasers so she has to force a retreat instead of interrogating them.
20 Oct 2025 | 4:35 AM
flblbl
The burnt sleeve is back babey
20 Oct 2025 | 4:36 AM
Bisqwit
That’s one way to force the intruder(s) away.
20 Oct 2025 | 4:47 AM
Metanym
HELL YEAH who said Kat needs any backup?!
20 Oct 2025 | 4:57 AM
MD
Cue "Loup could have done that at any time?!"
20 Oct 2025 | 5:10 AM
Fredman
Jack- “but I really wanted to kill this young girl because of mysterious information from an entity with every reason to manipulate me!”
20 Oct 2025 | 5:12 AM
Bored
Jack looks so ugly in Panel 7. Suits his personality. (The others look ugly all the time anyway)
20 Oct 2025 | 5:15 AM
F Kruger
I can see this ending well for them! Go team!
20 Oct 2025 | 5:33 AM
Orion
It looks like Kat has to make a constant effort to keep the green energy cage going. It also looks like she's royally pissed. I love the red magic-shadows cast by the green bars--nice touch!
20 Oct 2025 | 5:34 AM
Freddy K
It's a death cage. A simple one.
20 Oct 2025 | 5:38 AM
pax
oh kat is NOT playing around she was gonna dice them with that cage. awesome.
20 Oct 2025 | 5:46 AM
Kate
she ded
20 Oct 2025 | 5:58 AM
Beliar
Well, something tells me that using some sort of teleport within that cage, within her lab is not the brightest idea
20 Oct 2025 | 6:06 AM
Me
In last page it looks like they teleported the cage with them.
20 Oct 2025 | 6:25 AM
whitherItGoes
Did she just trigger the soul binding? That's a shame.
20 Oct 2025 | 6:28 AM
Timo42
Witches au gratin?
20 Oct 2025 | 6:28 AM
McAvity
The dark side of Kat has spoken....
20 Oct 2025 | 6:56 AM
Hattsworth
I see Kat has been reading One Piece.
20 Oct 2025 | 6:56 AM
Citrus
The hell prison is not teleport-proof.
20 Oct 2025 | 7:04 AM
SarahN
Haha Kat making the cage get smaller. Serves 'em right.
20 Oct 2025 | 7:06 AM
antheridium
Kat 1, witches 0.
This isn't over, though. Now that they have an idea of what Kat is actually capable of, they're going to be back with Sylvie in tow, and this is going to get much uglier.
Fortunately, now that Kat knows they're out for her blood, she can properly prepare.
20 Oct 2025 | 7:08 AM
some1
Can't she just teleport outside of the cage?
20 Oct 2025 | 7:14 AM
Nervous
I was hoping there'd be resolution at the end of this chapter!! Argh, what is Zimmy's secret?
20 Oct 2025 | 7:23 AM
SapphicLight
Please tell me they're not going to be able to escape the inescapable cage designed to hold chaos deities. Heh heh. Not that I'm wishing for their deaths, exactly, but... some minor discomfort and comeback for their attempted homicide, certainly.
20 Oct 2025 | 7:27 AM
Nova
L8r g8mr
20 Oct 2025 | 7:45 AM
Photo Ops
Sensible Rosa leads a tactical advance to the rear. General Jack furiously realizes that he really isn’t leading anyone. Zara now knows that the mission intel was totally hosed, but perhaps there opportunities to explore here. Jenny will not be happy. The reserve force will be activated.
20 Oct 2025 | 7:49 AM
Thomas
That's nifty. Reminds me of a birdcage from a show about pirates.
20 Oct 2025 | 7:49 AM
Panem
What is that thing? That Jack (the one who picked a rock out of a laser cow’s joint but seems intent on killing Kat) even objects to, in his current state of mind?
20 Oct 2025 | 7:59 AM
BH
Still a few of them unaccounted for...
20 Oct 2025 | 8:07 AM
Zoe
I feel like Kat just puzzled a jigsaw trap move...
20 Oct 2025 | 8:11 AM
croverus
Oh dang, Kat was gonna Resident Evil movie them!
20 Oct 2025 | 8:15 AM
kingtuna
aint that always the way, the villains try to murder you, but when you defend yourself they act like you broke the rules.
20 Oct 2025 | 8:19 AM
Variablevalor
Kat: "I cast forcecage"
20 Oct 2025 | 8:46 AM
Dday
Witches tryna slay a god, you know that won’t work. The Angel is so f*cking powerful.
20 Oct 2025 | 8:51 AM
Geezer D
It's "just" the audibly sizzling, smoking, glowing bars of cage visibly surrounding you on five sides, but in a friendly, harmless way.
20 Oct 2025 | 9:31 AM
Bzzt Cackle Pop
Someones gave Kat a new hobby it seems. Bad news for them.
20 Oct 2025 | 9:37 AM
Darkovika
Yeah, this is just sensing Kat careening toward godhood man.
20 Oct 2025 | 10:13 AM
B
Oh, Kat can shrink the cage. At least Jack is focusing on what is important which is finishing the job because Kat *might* know something and will probably start looking after this event.
20 Oct 2025 | 10:52 AM
Gallows
Shrinking Laser Cage is the name of my new punk band.
20 Oct 2025 | 11:13 AM
Istadane
Is he saying no because he somehow knows, or because he hates Kat so much he refuses to just leave her?
20 Oct 2025 | 11:19 AM
lilli
Kat just went full Doflamingo on them. I didn't expect a One Piece reference.
20 Oct 2025 | 11:30 AM
Vorlonagent
Too bad kids. That was your best shot. Kat will have intruder defenses next time.
20 Oct 2025 | 11:42 AM
Python 085
Aaaww
Zara is REGRETTING her decision NOW! Or is just very uncomfortable or something?
I actually like Rosa's analysis and decisive action in this particular strip. There may be some serious concerns about the whole process & execution of Kat's execution, but still the gal has serious potential. -- Now, Kat has to seriously upgrade her security safeguards situation. Perhaps a permanent squad of point defense Laser Cows??
20 Oct 2025 | 1:07 PM
Em
Itd be cool if this was part of the plan too, to take out as much of the coven as possible in order to make it easier to get to zimmy
20 Oct 2025 | 1:08 PM
Anony
Disappointed by people assuming Kat was going to kill them. I would think panel 5 is where the bars stopped.
Curious to see if the ZIP actually goes anywhere through the bars or no. Them dezipping to the same spot would be very funny.
20 Oct 2025 | 2:57 PM
Rbp7Ooz
.... It's Lazer Cows 2.0!
20 Oct 2025 | 3:01 PM
BadRoad
Even if they get away, now Kat knows they're coming.
20 Oct 2025 | 3:04 PM
CeeKay
Can't decide if I want Kat to reveal she made an Anti-Magic Cage (a la the Resident Evil movie's hallway), or to reveal that was just a holographic bluff.
20 Oct 2025 | 3:12 PM
Cargo
I think the shrinking cage is more an intimidation thing. It's just one way to show her hand and hopefully get some sense into them. Also I hope they f@cked up and get turned into an imagination of eachother. Cause that would make me happy.
20 Oct 2025 | 3:17 PM
LANPartyCEO
Hate to see you cut and run but...
20 Oct 2025 | 3:27 PM
akodorokku
I repeat: WHAT MADE YOU THINK ATTACKING THE MAD SCIENTIST IN THEIR LAIR WAS A GOOD IDEA?
20 Oct 2025 | 3:45 PM
Boxbot
Kat was harmless. But now she's angry. They probably caused the future they were trying to avoid.
20 Oct 2025 | 4:20 PM
Tiff Hudson
"Hi, Jenny. We gotta quick question for ya. Yer boyfriend and a coupla yer fangerls tried ta kill me just now. Got an explanation?"
20 Oct 2025 | 5:21 PM
TheWreck
Kat: "This ain't no party! This ain't no disco! And I'm not foolin' around!"
20 Oct 2025 | 5:22 PM
Incognito
Rage quit.
20 Oct 2025 | 5:39 PM
blort
huh. i kinda right.
she pooped out a cage
20 Oct 2025 | 5:53 PM
Zane
Just shrink the cage. Everything will sort itself out.
20 Oct 2025 | 6:31 PM
So not boxbot
Jack should’ve touched the cage. It would’ve been for the best.
20 Oct 2025 | 6:34 PM
Lomeo
Now there's our Kat!
20 Oct 2025 | 8:07 PM
Dday
Once she gets the Anya eyes she can cube you up like soft tofu.
20 Oct 2025 | 8:20 PM
msd3000
When you try to catfish and murder a girl, only to find out she's a machine god.
20 Oct 2025 | 8:34 PM
Sleeve
To the people with the sleeve comments, it was burnt at the front, not the side or the back. So it only shows from the front view. Artist knows what he is doing.
20 Oct 2025 | 8:48 PM
JMRinLag68
Can't be great if Jack is saying no to it.
20 Oct 2025 | 8:58 PM
Thescarredman
I hope it doesn't work. These girls need taken down a peg.
20 Oct 2025 | 9:25 PM
Metanym
A part of me wants Jack et al to be redeemable, a part of me is like, "well, they were willing to do it to her" Idk, seems they think they were doing something good somehow, and context always matters, but even the best of intentions will only excuse so much, y'know? I'm all for showing mercy to people who cease to be serious threats, but also, this was a Choice™, and they need to be Told™, and what that actually looks like is gonna depend on what they thought they were preventing here, and on whether they keep trying.
20 Oct 2025 | 9:32 PM
Ryusui
Nah you ain't.
20 Oct 2025 | 9:37 PM
Moonhaven
and now they've lost the element of surprise
20 Oct 2025 | 11:35 PM
Mike
Never roll up and pull a fight with a God.
21 Oct 2025 | 1:52 AM
Luc
Is that the same green energy from the arrow? There was concern among some characters with letting Kat have it and Annie wanted to trust her with it. I wonder if this is related…
Comments
Oh wow. Kat was pushing the cage inwards. I wonder if she would’ve went through with it
Are you, now.
Is their ZIP going anywhere, or are they stuck?
z-z-z-z-s-s-s-s-S-S-MOKIN'!!!!'
The Bit Off More Than We Could Chew Squad makes a hasty retreat.
Kat 1-Coven 0 Was Kat shrinking the cage?
Oh they almost got sliced.
Surely they can't get off that easily.
She lives to see another day. The hopefuls had their plan foiled by one girl and ancient robots. It might be better for her to stay by Annie from this point on though.
Byee! Until next time!
And just like that…… they bwipped away. Interesting that Kat was prepared to kill them. She who controls an army of robots…..
....and STAY OUT!
It's an extremely harmless hologram?
Such a sensible witch.
Yeah you'd better run. Or don't, and we get to watch Kat beat you up.
Of course you know, this means war.
Yall are gettin' out easy! She could have teleported your butts outta there and let the distortion deal with you!
...was that a good move, though? Is the "zzzt" similar to an ominous high power voltage hum, or a bluff to make them leave ASAP, as maintaining the cage is taxing on Kat? I would guess that a cage designed to hold Loup has some countermeasures against teleportation. The cage is green, which might mean the Arrow is somewhat involved; if true, we know that, when correctly deployed, the Arrow is more powerful than Coyote or the Death Guides.
Well, that’s the last we'll see of them… in one piece, that is.
I'm sorry they are getting away scot-free, but this is probably the best for Kat.
Strategic withdrawal. Hopefully Kat can sort out their problem before they come back with bigger mojo.
Jack would rather die than let whatever he's afraid of happen? Someone get this mans a nap or something, he's completely crashed out.
yea kat you da MAN
Ah ok so nothing of value happened today. Honestly good I sincerly hope for a redemption. I know, that's overplayed, but I like all these fellas. That is, if the 'bwip' actually works. However if it does couldn't loup have just done the same to f off? Is 'the orb' that powerful? Dahm I kinda want to sleep two days straight to time travel to the next page
She was going to grate them like cheese!
Yeah, perhaps going against a technological deity wasn't such a good idea after all. Now she's pissed, but not becuase they targeted her, but becuase they hurt her "kids". These kids are soooooooo fucked.
Well if Loup could not teleport through this cage, I fear this trip may not end up well for them.
Watching this has made me realise something: Jenny and her coven, even Jack, all have the tropes of a YA novel/animated tv series. You have the group of pretty women with magical powers, witches, the haunted but handsome love interest, Jack, and their enemy: Technology represented by Kat. In that sort of story, Tech would be the bad guy.
Is Rosa using a small Buga Sphere? Also, ZIp instead of Bwip?
Woo! Annie’s gonna be so pissed. Though it’s nice to see Kat hold her own when she doesn’t usually fight
Boss move from Kat. As I said a couple of pages ago, you don't want to make her angry. ;)
You can't do that, right? Did Kat just kill Jack and the witches inadvertently?
No please, Jack, go ahead and touch it. Geez, Kat is being far too merciful with the slow moving cage.
So "ZIP" for Zara's inter-dimensional Portal? I'm gonna guess that the next version of Kat's Holding Pen is going to feature an etheric extension that will shut down that little Loup-hole ... and maybe close in a lot faster, too.
Congratz, now the entire robot population is gonna be out for blood. Yall are fucked. And thats not counting the fucking Fire elemental that is Annie!
Katerina found her superpower!
Good, she's struggling to keep those lasers so she has to force a retreat instead of interrogating them.
The burnt sleeve is back babey
That’s one way to force the intruder(s) away.
HELL YEAH who said Kat needs any backup?!
Cue "Loup could have done that at any time?!"
Jack- “but I really wanted to kill this young girl because of mysterious information from an entity with every reason to manipulate me!”
Jack looks so ugly in Panel 7. Suits his personality. (The others look ugly all the time anyway)
I can see this ending well for them! Go team!
It looks like Kat has to make a constant effort to keep the green energy cage going. It also looks like she's royally pissed. I love the red magic-shadows cast by the green bars--nice touch!
It's a death cage. A simple one.
oh kat is NOT playing around she was gonna dice them with that cage. awesome.
she ded
Well, something tells me that using some sort of teleport within that cage, within her lab is not the brightest idea
In last page it looks like they teleported the cage with them.
Did she just trigger the soul binding? That's a shame.
Witches au gratin?
The dark side of Kat has spoken....
I see Kat has been reading One Piece.
The hell prison is not teleport-proof.
Haha Kat making the cage get smaller. Serves 'em right.
Kat 1, witches 0. This isn't over, though. Now that they have an idea of what Kat is actually capable of, they're going to be back with Sylvie in tow, and this is going to get much uglier. Fortunately, now that Kat knows they're out for her blood, she can properly prepare.
Can't she just teleport outside of the cage?
I was hoping there'd be resolution at the end of this chapter!! Argh, what is Zimmy's secret?
Please tell me they're not going to be able to escape the inescapable cage designed to hold chaos deities. Heh heh. Not that I'm wishing for their deaths, exactly, but... some minor discomfort and comeback for their attempted homicide, certainly.
L8r g8mr
Sensible Rosa leads a tactical advance to the rear. General Jack furiously realizes that he really isn’t leading anyone. Zara now knows that the mission intel was totally hosed, but perhaps there opportunities to explore here. Jenny will not be happy. The reserve force will be activated.
That's nifty. Reminds me of a birdcage from a show about pirates.
What is that thing? That Jack (the one who picked a rock out of a laser cow’s joint but seems intent on killing Kat) even objects to, in his current state of mind?
Still a few of them unaccounted for...
I feel like Kat just puzzled a jigsaw trap move...
Oh dang, Kat was gonna Resident Evil movie them!
aint that always the way, the villains try to murder you, but when you defend yourself they act like you broke the rules.
Kat: "I cast forcecage"
Witches tryna slay a god, you know that won’t work. The Angel is so f*cking powerful.
It's "just" the audibly sizzling, smoking, glowing bars of cage visibly surrounding you on five sides, but in a friendly, harmless way.
Someones gave Kat a new hobby it seems. Bad news for them.
Yeah, this is just sensing Kat careening toward godhood man.
Oh, Kat can shrink the cage. At least Jack is focusing on what is important which is finishing the job because Kat *might* know something and will probably start looking after this event.
Shrinking Laser Cage is the name of my new punk band.
Is he saying no because he somehow knows, or because he hates Kat so much he refuses to just leave her?
Kat just went full Doflamingo on them. I didn't expect a One Piece reference.
Too bad kids. That was your best shot. Kat will have intruder defenses next time.
Aaaww Zara is REGRETTING her decision NOW! Or is just very uncomfortable or something?
Poor Kat. I hope she can manifest a laxative.
whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat
Seems ill-advised.
I actually like Rosa's analysis and decisive action in this particular strip. There may be some serious concerns about the whole process & execution of Kat's execution, but still the gal has serious potential. -- Now, Kat has to seriously upgrade her security safeguards situation. Perhaps a permanent squad of point defense Laser Cows??
Itd be cool if this was part of the plan too, to take out as much of the coven as possible in order to make it easier to get to zimmy
Disappointed by people assuming Kat was going to kill them. I would think panel 5 is where the bars stopped. Curious to see if the ZIP actually goes anywhere through the bars or no. Them dezipping to the same spot would be very funny.
.... It's Lazer Cows 2.0!
Even if they get away, now Kat knows they're coming.
Can't decide if I want Kat to reveal she made an Anti-Magic Cage (a la the Resident Evil movie's hallway), or to reveal that was just a holographic bluff.
I think the shrinking cage is more an intimidation thing. It's just one way to show her hand and hopefully get some sense into them. Also I hope they f@cked up and get turned into an imagination of eachother. Cause that would make me happy.
Hate to see you cut and run but...
I repeat: WHAT MADE YOU THINK ATTACKING THE MAD SCIENTIST IN THEIR LAIR WAS A GOOD IDEA?
Kat was harmless. But now she's angry. They probably caused the future they were trying to avoid.
"Hi, Jenny. We gotta quick question for ya. Yer boyfriend and a coupla yer fangerls tried ta kill me just now. Got an explanation?"
Kat: "This ain't no party! This ain't no disco! And I'm not foolin' around!"
Rage quit.
huh. i kinda right. she pooped out a cage
Just shrink the cage. Everything will sort itself out.
Jack should’ve touched the cage. It would’ve been for the best.
Now there's our Kat!
Once she gets the Anya eyes she can cube you up like soft tofu.
When you try to catfish and murder a girl, only to find out she's a machine god.
To the people with the sleeve comments, it was burnt at the front, not the side or the back. So it only shows from the front view. Artist knows what he is doing.
Can't be great if Jack is saying no to it.
I hope it doesn't work. These girls need taken down a peg.
A part of me wants Jack et al to be redeemable, a part of me is like, "well, they were willing to do it to her" Idk, seems they think they were doing something good somehow, and context always matters, but even the best of intentions will only excuse so much, y'know? I'm all for showing mercy to people who cease to be serious threats, but also, this was a Choice™, and they need to be Told™, and what that actually looks like is gonna depend on what they thought they were preventing here, and on whether they keep trying.
Nah you ain't.
and now they've lost the element of surprise
Never roll up and pull a fight with a God.
Is that the same green energy from the arrow? There was concern among some characters with letting Kat have it and Annie wanted to trust her with it. I wonder if this is related…